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Hi, and welcome to E2 Talks. In this episode Jay chats with Paul Nation, professor in Applied Linguistics at the School of linguistics and applied language studies at Victoria University of Wellington New Zealand. His specialist interests are the teaching and learning of vocabulary and language teaching methodology. J and Paul discuss vocabulary, How many words do native English speakers know? How do we learn new words? Is word frequency important? Is polysemy even a thing? They also discuss the application of Paul’s four strands method of language learning to online learning environments, a comprehensive theory of second language learning. If you’re an English language teacher or avid English language learner or you’re just interested in the magic of language itself you don’t want to miss this discussion. Enjoy

Jay  

Paul I’m really happy to have you on the E to talks podcast thanks for coming along good Could you just start by giving us a bit of background on what you do or did in your academic career

Paul  

Well my academic career has not ended although I’ve retired I’m still attached to the university and my career was largely training Teachers of English as a foreign language Okay, and I did that at all levels and teachers colleges and universities and from diploma courses right up to PhD supervision and then my specialists interests within that field the teaching and learning of vocabulary and language teaching methodology okay terrific. And in fact it’s quite hard for me to separate those two because language teaching and learning vocabulary is the central part of language teaching methodology and the same principles of learning etc apply so I don’t see a great distinction between them.

Jay  

How fundamental is vocabulary itself to language learning and there’s lots of other skills pronunciation, listening, spelling, etc. is is vocabulary Central.

Paul  

Yeah, I think I think it’s pretty important too. I mean, there’s a very famous quote by a man who gave a strong push to the functional approach to language teaching and he said something like, in our forgotten record, nevermind, but it’s something like where the grammar you can say some things or some without words, you can say anything? Yes, some of that right. And that sort of nature but it’s, it’s, it’s easy to you know, there are other clearly other aspects of language learning, but I tend to take a view that grammar can be viewed from a vocabulary perspective. And, and that you can go quite a long way to learning grammar through learning grammar, and multi word units and that sort of thing. And in when people do analyses of regularities and irregularities in grammar, you often find it’s really difficult to find rules which are consistently and constantly applied in which don’t have lots of exceptions and so on. Sort of indicating that, that grammar, probably to a large degree is sort of vocabulary and instant instant spaced rather than what based on word grammatical generalizations. That’s a pretty wide grammatical generalization too, but I think, I think it’s probably largely true,

Jay  

Right? Yeah. Okay. So interesting. So, so there really is no separation between grammar and vocabulary is there because they’re just sort of one in the same this is

Paul  

I wouldn’t say one the same but certainly, you know, the the link clearly because words, words occur in the sentences and sentences contain words. So, you know, it’s you certainly couldn’t ditch one and survive solely on the other.

Jay  

Yes. Can we just talk before we get stuck into the topic of the conversation, which is Gonna be applying the four strands to computer delivered and also autonomous language learning. Can we just spend a few minutes talking about actually what vocabulary is? I mean, it seems to be one of those questions that would seem quite simple but often those simple questions are the most complex one what what are words? And what is vocabulary?

Paul  

You’re right to say, it can be complicated, because, you know, when I when I write books and articles about vocabulary, then I do you include pronunciation because words have spoken forms. Food spelling, because words have written forms. And then do you include multi word units with vocabulary, because words combined to make bigger units, and so on, and, and certainly in, in my view of the field, you you really have to include these other aspects within vocabulary. And so it does become quite difficult to define vocabulary. On the other hand, when you look at the different aspects of vocabulary knowledge, such as spoken form, and written form, and the actual words and multi word units, and the grammar and so on, you find that within each of those aspects of what it means to know a word, there are sort of the same sort of learning principles and the same sort of, how would you say, language system features apply. You know, like, even with spelling, you know, there, there are some word sound spelling correspondences which are very, very frequent and very common. And they are some which are very uncommon. And it’s the same with words, there are some words which are very, very common and frequent and some in many 1000s, which are very, very uncommon. In even when we come to grammar, there are grammatical features of the language which occur in almost every sentence. And then there are grammatical features and a very large number of them, which occur very rarely by comparison. And so the same sort of issues, which face the learning of, you know, vocabulary as, say, single words, phrases, the learning of multi word units, and the learning of grammar and the learning of spelling and pronunciation and so on. So it’s quite you, I mean, I, I get quite interested in the spelling at times, because yeah, spelling is a very, can be a very narrowly defined area, you know, in English, you’ve got 26, letters, and so on. And so is something which is in in is, in a way, it’s very small, because the number of units involved can be can be seen as being a very small number. But all of the issues which apply across all of the other features of language, also apply across spelling. And so when you look at research on spelling, you can often get very good insights into things which will be issues and answers to those issues, which apply far beyond the the aspect of spelling. So yeah, so you know, drawing the boundary between words and other bits of the language is difficult as you say it, and it’s right. And it should be difficult to because language is really an integration of, of various features, and so on.

Jay  

Yeah. So, Paul, you mentioned about frequency of words. And I suspect you’re talking about sort of power laws where there’s a small number of curve Yeah, a small number of words to just use far more frequently than other words, which are less common. So when we’re learning a new language, should we be focusing on high frequency words? And isn’t that problematic? Because often the high frequency words are like the copula, B or the strange prepositions and stuff like that. How do we go about that?

Paul  

Well, the function words that you mentioned make up only a very small proportion of the high frequency words of the language we use to define the high frequency words as being the most frequent and wide ranging, first 2000 words now there’s a tendency to want to include the first 3000 words, I sort of tend to be dry waver between 2003 1000 I tend to be a bit of a traditionalist and sort of favor 2000 but I can see the arguments for 3000. Now the function words of the language make up a group, roughly of about 150 words, okay, right. And so, and although those 150 words cover 50% of the running words in any text, there’s still only 150 of them and of those 150 words, a fair number of them, such as the numbers, you know, 12345678, they’re all counted as function words, right? And conjunctions, and to fairly large degree prepositions, these, these all have very strong lexical meanings. And so, you know, you can learn the conjunction because, or the conjunction before or after, just as, as you would learn a content word nice. So just because I call function words, because you know, there’s a limited number of them in that grammatical class, doesn’t mean that they don’t have a lot of lexical meaning. So even though there’s 150 of them, which is still a very small proportion of 3000. At least half or more, and probably probably we’re talking about three quarters of the function words actually have quite a strong lexical meaning.

Jay  

Oh, fascinating. Okay, that’s, that’s, that’s some give me gives me some relief. Now, with regard to content words, we’re talking about sort of nouns and verbs and adjectives, etc. If you are starting out in a new language, should you just be focusing on nouns and verbs? High Frequency nouns and verbs?

Paul  

No, I mean, the way I’d recommend beginning a new language is a way which Harold Palmer in the 1930s also recommended, told you i was a traditionalist, I mean, he would say, you should memorize the most useful phrases and that as quickly as you can when you begin to learn another language, and I think he’s, he’s right about that. A friend and I wrote an article several years ago, I think it was 1991 about creating a survival vocabulary for English. And this arose out of a, an overseas venture I was going to do is I was going to teach at a teacher’s college in Finland. And this was an all the teachers college was actually part of a Finnish sorry, a Swedish speaking University. And I thought, Well, before I go there, I should learn a little bit of Swedish seeing I’ll be in a Swedish speaking University and so on. Swedish is that one of the national languages of Finland and about, I think it’s about 10% or more of the population speak it. And it’s, it’s regarded as one of the two national languages along with Finnish. Anyway, so I went down to language lab and I sat down, I got out a course in Finnish, Swedish sorry, sat down, and for three hours, I sat there and listened. And after three hours, I came to the most useful, the first useful phrase, and that phrase was ‘var egan toaletten’. Where lies the toilet. Okay. And three hours took me to get to that. All the rest was, this is a bus, the buses red it is a new bus, you know, rubbish. Yes, you know, and I thought, Hell, I can do better than that. So we we interviewed about 20 people who’d lived in another country for a short time. And we, you know, but at least a month in said what we know, tell us the bits of the language that you picked up. And then we sort of made of a kind of double barreled interview where we also said, After that, tell me a typical day that you would spend to that country, what did you do, that was a way of sort of double checking what they told us about the language features they knew. And as a result, and we also analyze guide books, because we figured that the language at the back of travel guide books would be at least one person’s experience, you know, in any way. So we came up with a list of 120 words and phrases, which you could learn in less than four hours total, not a four hour study, that would be bad learning, but spreading it, you know, 15 minutes here, 15 minutes here, and so on. And we came up with those. And you know, with just a few hours of spaced, repeated study, you could learn these 120 words and phrases, and hit the ground running no matter where you were, where you were traveling, and we translated that we help got people to help us translate that survival vocabulary into about 14, or 15 different languages. All of these translations are free on my web resources page. But it meant that when I went to Greece, for example, on the aeroplane between Finland and Greece, I learnt the survival vocabulary for Greek and when I got there, I could bag in for a taxi. I could Till the director asked the taxi to take me to the hotel, I could go out to the market and buy food, I could be polite to the people behind the counter and in the hotel we were staying in, and do all of these very, very useful things very quickly. And so my recommendation is when people begin to learn another language, they should find the most useful words and phrases. And I, and I think that 120 we have got is a good starting point, go through and edit and say, Well, I don’t need to ask, Where is the subway? Because this country doesn’t have subways? You know, you can cross that out. But and then you also need to sort of decide, well, what foods? Do I want to eat in that country, and you come up with that little list, but very quickly, you can then gain a sort of use of the language straightaway and get quite high motivation from that.

Jay  

Nice. And those high frequency phrases like those are often there’s not a direct translation, from your first language to second, like, if I think about Indonesian, which I know reasonably well, how do I get to, which is a very important little phrase is actually the literal translation is, is well, it’s lay what mana which means pass, which is, if you would never be able to pick that up, you know, work that out yourself from your first language, it just has to be something you memorize.

Paul  

Yeah, that’s right. And so, but but so. So that would be a starting point. But then I think frequency counts of the language are very important resources for people designing courses. And I think that adults who learn a language should also find a way of accessing frequency lists of the language they are learning that that’s not an unrealistic expectation now because there are websites like sketch engine, I think it was that

Jay  

that’s amazing. That website that is seriously impressive

Paul  

it’s got so many different languages. And you know, you can get a frequency list of the most useful words just straight off from it, you know, and I think brilliant thing, even without having to pay, I think your sketch engine does

Jay  

A free subscription. But yes,

Paul  

Yeah yeah the late adam kilgarriff helped set that up. And I just thought there’s such a marvelous resource

Jay  

Incredible, um Paul, just before we get into the fourth strands to talk about vocabulary size. So if I want to become a proficient speaker of English, or I suppose a better question is, how many words would the average English native English speaker know?

Paul  

Well, the rule of thumb for native speakers is that you take their age, minus two times 1000. Okay, so that means if you’ve got an eight year old, you take away two, so that’s six. And then minus two is really the first couple of years of life when you actually are learning vocabulary, but you’re not really producing much. Okay, yeah. And that that rule of thumb works up to the age of about 14 or 15, towards the end of secondary school. Now, so that means that say someone going from primary school to secondary school, would be a roughly at the age of say, 13, 12 or 13. And that means that they should know let’s say, 13 minus two, times 1000 equals 11,000. So they would know about 11,000 words, there, we’ve tested kids in New Zealand secondary schools. And found that that rule of thumb is, is one that generally applies. And I’ve done a survey of the small amount of research on in primary schools in Canada done by a friend of mine, Andy B Miller, and he gets the same sort of results for young kids. Now works up to the age of about 14, or 15, something like that. And then it doesn’t work after that. And that was an area of interest for me. But I think I know now why it doesn’t work like that. And it’s because of what you mentioned earlier. And that is this power law curve, or what we call a zepherin curve. Because the opportunity to meet low frequency words, or the opportunity to meet new words, becomes less and less as you learn more words of the language. Yes. And so when you get up to a vocabulary size of somewhere around, I will let’s see. So I said 15 years old, so it’d be 13 or 14,000 words or so. It’s a long time between meeting a word and then meeting that word again. To have a chance to get a repetition to help us stick in memory. And it’s only then when you get into specialist areas where you then have to learn the technical vocabulary of that area, that you then have a chance of having a rather rapid and quick expansion of vocabulary. So if you’re a doctor, you’re learning to be a doctor, you’ve got to learn about 10,000 or more new words. Oh, wow, it’s an enormous learning. But you imagined botanist here, yeah, if you if you want to study botany, gosh, you’ve got to learn the Latin names for the plants. You’ve got to learn, you know, the common names for the plants. And, you know, it’s an enormous thing. Now, that’s, that’s, that’s only for a few subject areas, I think it’s something like probably, botany, zoology medicine, maybe that’s about it. For most other subject areas, the technical vocabulary is probably somewhere between about 1000 to 2000 words. So when applied linguistics, you know, the teaching and learning English as a foreign language, you know, that sort of field, you probably will under 2000 words and the technical vocabulary, it sort of depends on what you what you call technical but

but but there’s not, there’s not a lot, but then you’d have to learn like that. And I sort of see it as being like a tree. When you when you learn your first language, the high frequency words, those two, three to 3000 words are like the roots of a tree. And everything depends on them, because I they, that they got, they’ve got the small number of function words, they’ve got the really, really useful high frequency words of the language. And then you have the trunk in the trunk is what I would call the mid frequency words of the language. And these are words between about the 4000 and the 9000. Yeah. And everybody who learns English learns the high frequency and the mid frequency words, you know, it’s inevitable, that’s just the nature of first language learning, we can’t avoid learning vocabulary, if we’re native speakers, and then we have the branches of the tree and the branches of the tree are your hobbies, your your career, if you like, the profession you work in the specialist interests that you have in so you know, in the in the areas of study that you engage in these head out from the trunk in various directions. And so, you know, someone will know the technical vocabulary of carpentry. But they won’t know the technical vocabulary of Applied Linguistics or of medicine or something like that. Now, there’ll be some shared vocabulary that everybody knows and in many technical vocabularies, but in general, you know, vocabs, start off being very similar in the routes, and then you have the trunk, which is sort of the beginning of divergent, but really, really the route and the trunks create that basis on which everything else depends. And then you have these very specialist and varied interests which take you in, in all sorts of different directions.

Jay  

Personally, it’s a beautiful metaphor, I love it. I’ll keep that one in my mind. It’s a ripper.

Paul  

I just published a book about, I think it was a year or two ago about the native Vocabulary size of native speakers measuring that people want to follow up. The part, the part I like the most of that is chapter seven, I think, which is a model of first language growth, the factors which affect first language growth. But one of the major factors affecting first language growth is simply statistical. And that is the opportunity to meet new words.

Jay  

Alright, sorry, you’ve used this word meet a few times. Why do you use that word? Why not learn new words? what’s what’s with meeting new words.

Paul  

When you made a word you don’t learn or for the first time, usually, I’m sure there are instances of one time learning but in general vocabulary, growth is cumulative for each word, as well as for the vocabulary itself. So you meet a word, you learn something about it, and then you meet it again, then you learn a little bit more about it. And so you build up the knowledge as you go along. So we have to see this is why I’m not a big I don’t really favor a lot of vocabulary teaching, because vocabulary teaching tends to work on the premise that I’ll teach the learners these words and then they’ll know them. And really, all it is is just a step towards knowing those words. And because it’s an early step, you’re not going to get enormous amount of learning sticking anyway,

Jay  

How many times do we need to meet word before it sticks in our minds?

Paul  

That’s the holy grail of language studies. The answer is to that to that is that the more times you meet it, the greater the chance you have of learning it, right? The minimum seems to be around about a dozen or so.

Jay  

Okay, and so if I know about 30,000 words, needed to meet each of those a dozen times it’s a significant

Paul  

You’re unlikely to know 30,000 words. As a native speaker of English. Having probably studied in some specialist theories, you’re probably close to 20,000. Yes.

Jay  

All right. All right. Wow, okay. Still a significant

Paul  

Having said that, id hedge it just by saying, that depends on my definition of what a word family is. Yes. Then, yes, recent research by Mark Breitbart in Belgium than that used a much more restrictive definition of word family. So for example, he included the word, Abby Abbott, Abbess, and all of those within the same word family, whereas I wouldn’t say he comes up with smaller figures. So he’d probably say you, you probably got a vocab size of, say, 14 or 15,000 words. But it’s not a big deal. It’s in the same ballpark.

Jay  

See, you know, we take a verb like eat, and we’ve got all the tenses, and then we’ve got the positive negative question form, we’ve got negative question form got active and passive form, we’ve worked out the other day that a single word eat can transform at four times, according to all these sorts of variations that goes through.

Paul  

Yeah, but you don’t want to get too hung up on that, because C dictionary makers are in the business of providing meanings for words, which are made in context. And so if you look up a word, like eight, you’ll find lots of either entries or Sabine trees with the word eat. Yes. And and you say, Wow, eat has lots of meanings. Yeah. Eat has one meaning. Yeah. But we have to adapt that meaning to the circumstances in which it occurs. Wonderful. Yeah. People people call all these different meanings polysemy in that their senses, which are related to each other. I, if I wanted to be controversial, I say I doubt that polysemy exists. Whoa, okay. polysemy is actually created by dictionary makers.

Jay  

Fascinating. All right,

Paul  

And but I’m being a bit controversial when I say that, because there are I polysemous items, which actually have moved so far away from the core meaning of the word, that it’s difficult now to see any connection between them. So and so, you know, I’d probably have to say, but, but when people want to make distinctions and say, you know, well, he take a run, that’s an easier one for me to do, probably, you know, you can run down the road, but the water runs out of the tap, right? And, you know, we count running words, words, which come after each other, or run has so many meanings. Well, I still think that run only has one meaning, and that language users have the skill to say, How do I adapt the core meaning of run that I have, to this particular use of run and this that’s what we have to do every day?

Jay  

Do you think do you think learners can infer that like, let’s say somebody knows the word, they’re learning English, they know the word run, like going for a jog is a synonym? And then they see, you know, my fridge isn’t running anymore? Can they? Or the water running? Can they then infer that meaning?

Paul  

Well, people would argue that their first language puts a sort of a template on it, which might make it difficult for them to do that. Yes, but I don’t know. See I I’ve lived in Japan for many times. And while they are got interested in Sumo and I learned quite a lot of Sumo bass vocabulary, and the the sort of loincloth that that sumo wrestlers wear is called a mawashi. And I, you know, so I learned this and then I was also going to a couple of classes each week run by the local government center, and the very good, the excellent teachers in that in that center, organize what they call an English conversation salon, where they invited other native speaking native speakers of Japanese to come along, and we’d have a chance to talk to them. And they would have a cup of tea and some cakes. Anyway, so we’re having a cup of tea and cakes and one of the Japanese visitor’s pass the plate of cakes to me and says, mawashi te kudasai, I just about fell over backwards. Because I realized that were mawashi te because I knew about at te as being a kind of imperative kind of form. And so she was and I could work out, he was saying to me pass the cakes around. And then I realized that my understanding of mawashi is a loincloth was the wrong core meaning mawashi means something that goes around, you see. yeah, now I was able to figure it out, maybe you could say, well, I’m an applied linguist, and all this sort of stuff out of out of data. But, you know, I don’t think I was applying special Applied Linguistics skills to do their bit of lateral thinking. That’s the thing. And every day, we use language, figuratively, in all these sorts of things, and we don’t have to rush to the dictionary to look it up, we just adapt the core meaning that we have to the use that we are meeting with, you know, and if we, you know, we know what a table is. And if we meet a table that we’ve never seen before, we don’t say I’ve got to go to the dictionary, look up the new meaning for this four legged thing with a flat top, you know, or things like that simply because it’s a different color or anything like that. We just adapt. That’s the nature of language. We contextualize the language. Yeah. So you don’t want to overestimate how many different things there are to learn, you really want to get at is what is the essence the core meaning of this? Yes, that’s worth learning.

Jay  

And then a figurative stuff will come from that.

Paul  

Yeah, all the figurative stuff is still the core meaning but just applied in different circumstances. Wonderful. One thing you should do is a learner, you know, it would be to say, well, what’s the meaning of what, or as a teacher? What’s the meaning of run? And run means, something like to move swiftly and? And sort of smoothly or something like that? You know? Yeah. And you can do it with legs, or you can do it flowing out of a tap, or you can do with your nose.

Jay  

Or the engine of a fridge. Yeah. That’s right. Okay. Oh, wonderful. All right, sorry. So I got probably got a bit sidetracked in there. But that was, that was really interesting. I enjoyed that a lot. So I’d now like to shift gears a little bit and talk about your methodology, the four strands of, of language learning. And if you can just briefly set that up for us. But then I would like to apply it to technology, because as you know, schools and teachers have done this radical sort of shift to teaching via computer and students have also probably done a pretty radical shift of during COVID, of not attending the face to face classes anymore. So I just want to look at all some of the different parts of that methodology, and then look at how it can be delivered via a computer or a phone or an individual can autonomously search the internet and help themselves to learn the language.

Paul  

Okay, I came across the idea of the four streams, because I was reading all the supplied linguistic research, second language acquisition research, research about writing research about reading research about deliberate learning. And I, I sort of sort of tried to say, Well, how, how does this all all this fit together? How do we make all of this one, you know, come together in some sort of sensible way. And it then occurred to me that really, what the research was looking at, was looking at opportunities for learning. And so I then, you know, started to put the bits and pieces of reading that I’ve done together, and I came up with the idea that if you want to have a well balanced language course, giving a balance of opportunities for learning, you need to have four strands which run through the whole course. And these strains are of equal size, so you spend the same amount of time on each strand. And so the first strand I look at is a strand of meaning focused input. And that’s learning from listening and from reading. And so you learn by meeting language, and by having repeated opportunities to meet the vocabulary and the grammar and so on, with contextual support. And so you can learn then by, it’s a way of using the language so you can learn by using the language through Meaning focused input through listening and reading, to develop your knowledge of grammar and pronunciation all those sorts of things. Now, clearly, there’s also got to be output and language learning so that so the second strand is meaning focused output and meaning focused output involves learning through speaking and writing. And about 25% of the time in a language course, should be getting the learners to do speaking and writing, where their main focus is not on the language, but on actually writing and actually on speaking and communicating with other people. Now the third strand is a strand of language focus learning. And there are other names for this. Rod Ellison others, for example, call it form focused instruction. And, and others call it deliberate learning. But I don’t quite like the way form focused instruction sort of implies that only focuses on form, which it doesn’t, because you can learn meaning and all sorts of other things through it. So I sort of then use language focus learning and language focus learning, which should only make up 25% of the time on the course, involves the deliberate study of features of the language such as spelling, pronunciation, grammar, multi word, units, discourse, and also the learning of strategies for language use, and for language learning. And that should make up about 25% of the time on the course, unfortunately, in most courses, certainly in Southeast Asia and East Asia, teams to make up about 90% of the time on the course. And then that’s not a great idea at all. Now, the fourth strand is a strand of fluency development. Because you not only need to learn the language, you need to become really fluent at using it.

And, and in order to do that, you have to develop fluency in each of the four skills of listening, speaking, reading and writing. And I’m sure there is a great deal of overlap between fluency development and the four skills. But there’s also value and efficiency in focusing on each skill separately, and fluency development. So the four strands principle says, if you want to have a well balanced language course, which gives the learners the best balance of opportunities for learning, you need to have these four strands of input output, deliberate study and fluency development. And ideally, they should all share the same content and be integrated with each other. So that the reading that you do and all the listening that you do in the meaning focus input strain, the listening and reading should be connected to each other. But they should also relate to output. And to learn deliberate study, so that you cover the same sort of content in each of those four strands. And that’s so that you get the important condition of repetition occurring. Because one of the most important things that you need for language learning is repetition of language features. And I I tend to over simplify things, simply because I want to make it clear to teachers, what’s really important, in my my oversimplification of vocabulary learning is simply there are only two things that matter in vocabulary learning, repetition, and the quality of the meetings that you have with the word at each repetition. If the quality of meetings is deep and thoughtful, then you increase the chances of learning. And so it’s a fairly simplistic approach to vocab teaching and learning, which avoids things like motivation and individual differences. And all the sort of statutes simply says, these two basic principles of repetition and quality of processing are critical to learning. Integrating across the four strands, so that you get this repetition and so that you increase the quality, through meeting through different skills and so on like that

Jay  

It’s a wonderful structure. It’s a wonderful framework, and it’s extremely applicable. I wish when I was back, classroom teaching, I knew this I was sort of cobbling together my own sort of theories of language learning, to be honest. But now how can we apply it to however, through the computer and using the internet, etc. So maybe if we go back to meaning focused input, listening and reading, how might this be best done via computers?

Paul  

Well, as I said, I’m going to Go a little bit more widely than please. But but it’s not too much more widely. If, if we, if we what I intend to do then is to look at each of those four strains and look at the opportunities for learning outside the classroom through each of those four strands. Now, so we’ll start with a strand of input, which looks at learning through listening and through reading. Yeah. Now, from a vocab perspective, the ideal vocabulary situation is when you know 98% of the running words in the input, okay, so that means if you’re reading a text, and you want to use it for meaning focus input, to incidentally, new learn new words, by guessing from context, or with the occasional dictionary look up or gloss look up, then really, you should, you should know 98% of the running words with only 2% unknown. Now two per 100, 2% unknown is still quite a lot of unknown words. Because if if, for example, you listen to the speed of say, 100 words per minute, that means still that with 98% coverage, there are two new words every minute occurring in what you’re listening to. And it’s the same with reading, you know, if you’re reading at a good speed of say 200 or 250 words a minute, then, on any page of size 300 words, there’s going to be six unknown words per page, every page. So even with 98% coverage or sounds like a lot, there’s still quite a lot of new vocabulary that you have to deal with. Now, some of that can be ignored. Some of that can be guessed from context, and so on. But, but really, you need to have that reasonably good level of coverage. Now how can you get this out of the classroom? Exactly? Yeah, well, the number one way, I think would be, first of all, extensive reading. And that is, learners should be learning through reading graded readers, which are at the right level for them. And this is critical. extensive reading means choosing the texts, which are at the right level, and the right level means you know enough vocabulary to be able to easily deal with 98% of the running words that you meet. And the other 2%, are what you’re going to have to have a gear set or look up as you do the reading. Now graded readers provide ideal conditions for meaning focused input, because there are graded readers which begin at the 50 word level. And they go up. Well, the commercial ones go up to around about the 3000 word level. But we have produced what we call mid the mid frequency readers which are freely available from my website, which go up which are at the 4000, 6000 and 8000 word level, because there’s a big gap between what graded readers cover, which is the high frequency words, and what you need in order to read unsimplified ungraded text. And to read ungraded text written for native speakers. You need to know about eight or 9000 words. Yeah, and and so clearly, then, to learn the high frequency words, you really got to do graded reading. And then there’s still a big gap between the end of graded readers and that 98% coverage which is around eight or 9000 words. So we created the mid frequency readers to fill that gap. So that would be my number one suggestion. Now, there are technological and computer based ways of doing graded reading. There’s a website called er extensive reading Central, which provides lots of resources for extensive reading. There’s a commercial website, run by an ex student of mine called Paul Goldberg called x reading, which has graded readers from publishers. And from a very small monthly subscription, a teacher can enroll a class in x reading and they have unlimited access to a very large number of graded readers at many, many many different levels.

And so this and the, the website x reading also covers things like keeping a record of what students read, giving them a little test on each book that they read and recording their score on the test in all sorts of things. So once a teacher makes use of this, there’s very little administrative work for the teacher to do it just except to keep a look at the figures and see, you know, if learners really are doing the reading, and so unlike avid, it does all the work for you. So that would be my number one resource, computer base resource, doing extensive reading, reading, graded readers. But yeah, if people don’t want to pay a small amount of money, and when I’m talking about a small amount of money, we’re talking only a few dollars per person, ie a per month, it depends on the country I think, but but you can still do this out of class with hard copies of graded readers. And if you’ve got a graded reader library, then learners can do it at home doing graded readers. But it’s really important that that learners know how to do this and ideally graded reading should be started in class. So that the teacher First of all, make sure that learners do the reading. And that learners are making use of the knowledge they get from the reading in the most efficient way possible. That is, if they come across words, they don’t know then they can put them onto word cards or into their flashcard programs to do learning, and so on. And, and once learners get hooked on the graded reading through the success that they have a reading books which are at the right level for them, it’s then likely that they’ll continue doing the reading. Yeah, one of the ways to convert teachers to doing graded reading is is to get the teachers to actually do graded reading themselves. When they find the, the graded readers I read are actually really enjoyable and interesting story. Some of them are small works of art. There’s some really good graded readers, you know, which are written as being original books, telling really terrific stories, and now well told and gripping, you know, so so that’s what we’re bringing in. So that would be one of the things for now.

Jay  

Just Sorry, just to jump in there with graded readers, do they also grade the grammar? For example? Is it a predominant and a low level? Is it a predominant focus on the present simple and present continuous versus, you know, the past perfect and things like that?

Paul  

Yes, most of them do. They usually have some grammar scheme, which goes with them, right? I’d sort of take issue with your examples. Because the present continuous and the present perfect are actually, I would call them low frequency grammatical items, even though they are very frequent in language courses, when you actually look at them, in terms of frequency within the language there, for example, the present continuous for each example of the present continuous, there’s something like 20 examples of simple present.

Jay  

Yes, so there’s a power law there with grammar, verb tenses as well

Paul  

Yeah power law with grammar too. So the things like present continuous and perfect and have sort of around the dip on the edge between high frequency and in mid or low frequency. But anyway, yeah,

Jay  

 Okay, cool. All right. So now output, what about output? 

Paul  

Hang on we haven’t finished with it.

Jay  

Okay, let’s keep going. I like this

Paul  

So, so when I’ve been thinking about, you know, the input and output? Yeah, I think that input and output really cover the four skills of listening and speaking and reading and writing. And for each of the four skills in a language course, you need to have extensive listening, extensive reading, extensive speaking, and extensive writing. And I think that, that in any size, say if it was a skills based course, which focused on reading, then about half of the time, and that skills, base course, at least should be extensive, extensive reading, if it was a skill based course focusing on listening, then about half of the time in that listening course, would be extensive listening. Yeah, it’s now possible to do a lot of extensive listening through the internet, through the web. And as sort of extension or a part of extensive listening is what’s called extensive viewing. So Stuart Webb and his colleagues are really popularize this term now. And that involves Listening to movies and TV programs, and so on like that where you actually have audio visual input, which supports your listening. And, and there’s quite a lot of research now on extensive lis extensive viewing. And so watching TV programmes or movie with captions is a very good way of helping to learn vocabulary. Studying the script, because you can easily now find the scripts of movies and TV programs on the web. So studying the script before you watch the program, so study it as a reading text before you actually do the viewing, or have the script there while you listen to the movie. Or, you know, watch the movie with captions, so that you see the written form and hear the spoken form at the same time. These are all ways of getting good meaning focused input through the web. We also have listening to the songs I carry, okay gives you the words along with the song. And also you can go to many websites to download the lyrics of songs. Songs provide very good coverage of the first 2000 words of English. There’s a couple of PhD students who have done work on the vocabulary of songs. And they find that the first 2000 words covers close to, I think about 95, 98% of the words in the songs depending on the song. And I also looked at their research to see if you only listen to songs, but listen to a lot of them. Would you learn almost all of the first 2000 words? And the answer is you would it certainly meet almost all the first 2000 words through songs. There’s been some recent research on video games Oh wow. Looking What do they call them multiplayer, massively multiplayer online role playing games, m o rp gs or whatever. And the research has mainly been done in countries which have languages which are closely related to English, such as Swedish, Danish, Dutch, and so on. But they find that when kids come to school before they have had any English classes at school, they often know quite a lot of English already, which has been picked up at least partly through video games and playing these, these online role playing games and so on in some of it also comes through social media. And through texting and, and resources like that, we’ve got to be a little bit cautious with the research because as I said, almost all of it is from languages which are very cognate with English. And, and a large number of the words that the learners will be meeting are very similar to English words. And of course, an English is very common in these societies as well. But even so there’s there is good evidence that playing these games and watching movies and TV programs, and all of this sort of stuff can be a good source of meaning focused input for language learning. Okay.

Jay  

Let’s keep going. Number two,

Paul  

Meaning focused output, right carry on. So meaning focused output then involves speaking and writing. It’s, it’s a bit harder to do meaning focused output speaking outside of the classroom unless you have contact with others, right? Yes, but through social media and through texting, it’s possible to do this. And if a teacher could set up sort of language buddies, either pairing people with native speakers in classes and other parts of the world, or even people communicating with other learners in their own class through the internet, this would be some way of using the internet for spoken language practice. Writing is of course, much easier. And this can involve things like keeping a diary and it can be an electronic diary, and then doing free writing. And the free writing, of course, can be done on the computer, which the teacher can then give feedback on. And you can also do pair writing where learners work together to produce a piece of a piece of writing on a tick. So using something like Google Docs where people can contribute to the same document can also contribute to meaning focused output. Now it’s really important to stress that meaning focused input and meaning focused output are really not doing exercises or doing sort of blank filling activities or anything like that. Those are examples of language focus learning gotcha, meaning focused input and meaning focused output are using the language like a native speaker would use it, but using it at the level, which is appropriate and right for the learners. So this applies to both input and output. That’s why we want 98% coverage of input, so that learners can then be like native speakers, which, who are not overburdened with unknown vocabulary, but can do listening and reading and listening, reading in a very natural kind of way, without this heavy burden of unknown vocabulary. The same applies to output.

Jay  

Does that mean that we avoid feedback at this stage with speaking and writing as teachers because teachers love to give feedback and market essays and whatnot? Do we avoid that here?

Paul 

Well, feedback fits into language focus learning, okay? Right. Now, if you if you want to look at the writing course, and you and you, if you want to ask yourself the question, say, how do you teach writing? Then you can simply rephrase that question and say, Where does writing fit into the four strands. Now clearly, writing doesn’t really fit into the meaning focus input stream. So now you can read in order to do writing. And so there is some connection then between input and writing. But if your focus is on writing, then your main focus will be on meaning focused output. But you also need to have in your writing course, language focus learning, which is learning grammatical patterns, learning vocabulary, learning, spelling, and getting feedback from the teacher having a strategy, you know, using writing strategies to help you do your writing well, and one of those strategies, for example, might be something like reading like a writer, where when you read a text, you say, if I wrote this text, what questions would I be answering? Or what questions was the writer answering, and then use the same questions to guide your writing of a similar kind of text, maybe on slightly different content. And then a writing course should also involve fluency development, where you have 99 to 100% coverage of the vocab that you need, but you just do it fast, because you’re writing about very familiar very well known material, and so on, right? When you do meaning focused output. You can get feedback on that. But the feedback should really be counted as part of the language focus, learning strain. And the writing. Yeah, well, if the writing is fairly laborious writing, with lots of look up of words, and so on, like that, I’d probably put that kind of writing into something like intensive writing, which would be bad part of the language focus learning strain. But if the learner was sitting down with a lot of background knowledge, and writing about something that was reasonably familiar in which they knew quite a lot, and they knew most of the words and the grammar to do it, that would fit into meaning focused output.

Jay  

Okay, okay. Just are on we still on language focus learning now we we shifted gear?

Paul  

Yeah we can move there.

Jay  

Terrific. So how can the computer play a role in grammar, pronunciation, spelling excetera. Focus on for meaning and use? How do we do this?

Paul  

Well, from a vocab perspective, rote learning is very effective and date, and is well over 100 years of research on on how to do good rote learning and the effectiveness of it. And, for me, one of the most valuable recent findings of research is that the rote learning of vocabulary at the same time as it creates explicit knowledge of vocabulary, it also creates implicit knowledge of vocabulary. And implicit knowledge is knowledge that you can use without trying to consciously access that knowledge. And it’s the kind of knowledge needed for normal language use. A lot of the criticisms of rote learning were that you could learn these words by heart, but when you actually came to use the language, they weren’t available to you. Yes. The recent research shows that this is not true at all, that when we do explicit, deliberate rote learning, we also create implicit knowledge as well as explicit knowledge, and so, so and it’s, it’s very, very efficient. And and when I used to teach masters courses on vocabulary, one of the tasks that the teachers, the hairdresser said the inservice teachers had to do was to pick one of the survival vocabulary vocabularies, say, of Spanish or Italian or Dutch or something like that. And to rote learn 50 words from it using Word cards, and then to keep a little record of how many repetitions they needed, what were the problems, etc, etc, like that. And they used to blow their minds because they found that just simply making the cards or entering the words into a flashcard program resulted in them being able to respond correctly to at least 50% of the word straightaway. And they required probably less than about seven or eight repetitions. In order to learn the words up to quite a high level of knowledge. 

Jay  

So flashcards are in? 

Paul  

Flashcards are in, and there are now there’s certainly very good research on flashcard programs, and we know the principles which should guide them. And there’s tons of research showing the effectiveness of deliberate rote learning using spaced repetition, using retrieval, using quality of processing through imaging and using the keyword technique or so on for difficult words, there’s a set of useful guidelines that people can follow in rote learning. But if you want to quickly expand your vocabulary, that’s one of the ways to do it.

Jay  

Gotcha. What about pronunciation? What do you how do you feel about these little

Paul  

I think, I think that’s important, because one of the ways that words into long term memory is through what badly calls a phonological loop. And the phonological loop is, is a sort of a working memory device in your head that say, if you got to dial a number, you say that you look at the number and you say it to yourself, to help remember it, in order to be able to dial it. And, and so for some in, if things in front of in the phonological loop, they have a chance of getting into long term memory. And so in order to get things into long term memory, it’s good to have a stable and preferably accurate spoken representation for that particular word. So pronunciation is important.

Jay  

What about the AI that can give feedback on pronunciation? Is that helpful?

Paul  

Well, once again, you know, if you if you ask the question, how do you learn pronunciation? Then the answer says, will you learn it through listening input, you learn it through having to make meaning focused output. You learn it through language focus learning, so that is you get pronunciation practice. I mean, I’m, I’m still struggling with learning Thai. And you really need language focus learning in order to learn the tones. And you need to learn the rules of how the spelling indicates what the tone of a word is, and so on. Like, it’s good. It’s good to have language focus, learning feedback, but it should make up only about 25% of any pronunciation development program. Yeah. The other 75% should come through input output and fluency development.

Jay  

Yeah. All right, terrific.

Paul  

Okay, now, there’s tons of language focus learning activities that you can do through the web.

Jay  

Yeah, it really is built, isn’t it? 

Paul  

There’s no shortage of them

Jay  

Yes

Paul  

And the main thing would be choosing between them to make sure you chose the most effective and efficient ones. Because it’s websites like English Central, which have tons of it. And you can find tons of websites which provide fairly useful material for deliberate learning of the language.

Go on.

Jay  

Sorry, how do you feel about if we look at tests like the isles tests or the Cambridge suite they have some really beautiful like fifth think about the Cambridge key I don’t know if you’ve seen that little listening activity of the three images. You know, one will be an ice cream, a hamburger and a sandwich and there’s a short little listening activity and you have to decide which bit of food the person chose to eat that day. Are these helpful for language focus learning?

Well, that that would seem to me to get to be getting close to meaning focus input. Okay, now I would certainly be on the borderline between Language focus learning and meaning focused input. But but because the focus is on understand this message, yeah, that you’re getting close to meaning focused input. So, and particularly if they’re at the right level for the learner, that’s really important, you know,

Interesting. That’s wonderful. Sorry I was just gonna say, because one of the things that learners that, that we found in building software for language learning is they just love immediate feedback. Did I get it right today? Is it the sandwich? Does she want the sandwich? You know? Yeah, one of the things that an activity like, you know, when you reverse engineer a little language test activity, it does provide immediate feedback, which is satisfying and good for motivation.

Paul  

Yeah, yeah, that’s good. Yeah, no, I have no argument with that at all. And it, the thing about the four strands is that you really need to be aware of the conditions involved in each strand. And I’ve mentioned the vocabulary conditions in that meaning focus input requires about 98% coverage of the vocabulary and, and but there’s also the the, the condition of for the for the input and output strains and for the fluency strains of focusing on the message that’s being delivered, and that should be the primary focus, rather than the focus on the language. And in language focus learning, the focus is actually on language features, not not primarily on the message of the text. And that’s why I’d probably classify your examples of the pictures in the in the, in the listening text as being within meaning focused input.

Jay  

Okay. Oh, that’s, that’s extremely helpful for my thinking. I really appreciate you clearing that up for me.

Paul  

There’s there’s lots of other good language focus learning activities such as dictation. I’m a great fan of.

Jay  

Same I like it.

Paul  

I think it’s good. If it’s done properly in dictation done because I’ve, I did a sort of a, I was revising my book on teaching, listening and speaking. And I looked at dictation activities on the web, and many of them are not very good at all. They sort of they have the teacher speaking very slowly. And and then the vocab control. Isn’t that great in them? Yes. And and really with dictation, you should, you know, the input should be reasonably natural. But they should be breaking up in the phrases of manageable length for the learner to be able to deal with you know, and I still think that that I there isn’t really a dictation website on the web that I came across that I would actually recommend. I think we still need a good dictation website.

Jay  

Music to my ears. I love it. Yeah, I agree. Because there’s there can be profound aha moments when you they they understand connected speech, it might be a very common phrase that has some really quite hardcore connected speech, and you know what you’re going to do this weekend? And then and then when they might not get it correct. But when the answer is revealed to them, like, that’s what that means. Oh my god.

Paul  

Yeah. And so when designing a dictation website, you have to give thought to, first of all that, you know, the length of the phrase, and also the vocab level and grammar difficulty of it. But you also need to give thought to when you’re going to give the written feedback about it. You know, and you should have options where people could either look at the written form first, and then listen, or they can say, No, I really want to practice my listening. And so they listen first and then they can see after they’ve had a go at writing the the written feedback, you know, so, so there’s lots of things to think about in it. But it seems to me there’s really, a really need for a good dictation website.

Jay  

Fantastic. Yeah. Good to hear.

Paul  

Okay, let’s move on then to the fourth strand. fluency development. 

Jay  

Yeah this is the fun bit I reckon.

Paul  

Fluency means making the best use of what you already know. And I’ve gotten lots of fluency development stories, but one of my favorites is that when we lived in Japan, one time we used to, I used to see you know, we’d write a letter back to our son, this is pre internet days. And so I’d go into the post office with this letter to New Zealand and pass it across the counter and the guy would weigh it on the scale. And then he tells me the cost of the stamp in Japanese and I’d sort of smile stupidly at him, so he’d type it on his calculator and show me the number on the calculator. And then I thought, This is stupid. Because I actually know all the numbers in Japanese, but when this guy says them to me, I, it’s too fast I can understand. Yeah. So I sat down with my Japanese teacher. And we simply wrote all the numbers from one to 10. And then got the teacher to say 6872 in Japanese. And I had to point to the number. Yeah, five minutes of that I got quite good. And then the next lesson, we do it again. And then we move to a matrix, which goes to 100, the teacher says a number and I have to quickly point to the number in the matrix. Well, after a couple of weeks of spaced practice with that, not not a lot really, I could walk proudly into the post office, throw my letter across weigh it, pull the money out of my pocket without having to worry about him providing a written version for it, you know, for for that. And so that’s really what fluency development is not learning new words, or new grammar or anything like that. But taking what you know, and getting being able to use it up to a level which is close to that of a native speaker.

Jay  

Would you call it mastery?

Paul  

You could, but the mastery covers a lot of other

Jay  

Mastery of that little piece, I guess.

Paul  

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this sort of this sort of richness of knowledge involved in mastery as well. But fluency development can help help with that as well. I also think that fluency development is one of the good ways of getting learners to learn multi word units. Oh, yeah. Okay, simply because fluency activities, increase the amount of input and output. And also to deal with the input and output efficiently. Learners then have to move to, from paying attention to single words to paying attention to multi word units. So I think that a good fluency development program is likely to have very good effects on multi word unit learning. Their fluency development, therefore needs to involve nothing really, which is new, ideally, the language and the content should already be familiar. And the challenge is the speed, now in terms in terms of listening material, the the web is great for that, because you now have this speed control. Yeah. sites where you can listen slowly listen to the medium speed and listen at a normal speed, you know, and I just think that’s brilliant. Brilliant.

Jay  

Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, that just they’ve just released that on WhatsApp. I just noticed there was an update a few days ago to WhatsApp and problem is if WhatsApp you can only speed it up, you can’t slow it down. But yeah, little audio players with the speed control

Paul  

YouTube you can slow down, okay, yep. And there’s quite a lot if you look at in the settings of quite a lot of the web sites like YouTube, and that there are ways of actually slowing down and it doesn’t distort the sound, which is just brilliant. It still sounds good. So things like listening to a recorded story, or shadowing, no repeated as a movie scene or something like that for for speaking and listening would be great activities for really fluent, or sorry, listing fluency. Really, there are there are now speed reading courses at various word frequency levels and are available free from my website. My colleague Sonia millat, has developed, I think it’s a 500 level one speed reading course 1000 2000, the 2000 plus academic wordless 3000 level 4000 level speed reading courses. And these speed reading courses are now available in an app that one of our pH, or ex PhD students has developed. So you can you can do speed reading on your cell phone, now add variety of word frequency levels, and really increase your reading speed. And a speed reading course can increase your reading speed by anywhere between 50 and 100%. In some learners actually double their reading speed through doing a speed reading course. So and, and by doubling your reading speed, you can read twice as much in the same time and get twice as much input. So it’s really worthwhile doing it. It’s worthwhile. If you’re a teacher having a quick look at the research on speed reading, or I think there’s an article on my website called what’s it called fluency development and reading or something. It’s a free article. reviews the research and there is all these free speed reading courses available, and that you only use them learners. There are 20 passages in each course, in each passage takes about seven or eight minutes for the learner to read, answer the questions and then mark the answers and record the results. And in for that small investment of time is a really good return for learning.

Jay  

Both of you, if you ever come across it, a website called spritz, spritz, SP r i t Zed, and what it is

Paul  

No i haven’t read i’ll make a note of it.

Jay  

Yeah make a note because what it is it’s astonishing. It’s these people have developed this sort of way of reading that is different to the current way of reading, the way of reading now is we move our eyes from left to right across a sentence, right? And

Paul  

Well when we make jumps, we make the isokinetic jump. Yes,

Jay  

Yeah. And then we sort of go down and we do it again. And again. And again. Now what they’ve done with spritz is it’s a central point, and the word shows and then the next word, and then the next word and the next word, and so you’re not actually moving your eyes. And their claim is that it can improve the fluency of your reading enormously, and you’ve got this little dial and you can turn up the dial to say 250 words a minute, or 300. And it just starts going, but it’s, it’s really fun to play with. But the problem I find with it is that it just doesn’t come in phrases, it comes in individual words at the same rate, if it came in chunks, I think it would really help comprehension, but currently, it just does single words.

Paul  

Well, the research on can see there’s a lot of good research on speed reading now using eye tracking. And, and the research shows that when we read, we focus on most of the words that we read, so we don’t jump from phrase to phrase, we go from Word to word, okay, yeah, and about 90% of the words in the text are actually focused on. Now, the and and to go from one word, or one focus to another is called a jump, or a cicade is a technical term. And to make a jump kit, that can be done very quickly. But the minimum time needed to focus is about point two of a second. Now, that means that within the second, you could read about five words focus on five words. And so therefore, in a minute, you could read about 300 words. And sorry, 300 words per minute, is really the upper physical limit of speed reading,

Jay  

 Gotcha. Interesting, 

Paul  

Because if you’re reading faster than 300 words per minute, you’re skipping quite a few words. And so you can skip quite a few words, if you bring a large amount of background knowledge. But for normal reading, where you only have, you know, just a reasonable amount of background knowledge, but not the enormous amount, you can’t really do what we would call reading and go faster than about 300 words per minute.

Jay  

Good to know.

Paul  

So if you want to get into the technical of that. Things about that. Then look on my website on the publication’s there’s an article called reading fluency, which gives you various details. And so on

Jay  

I have to say, anyone who’s who’s listening to this right now, please, Google paul nation, and you’ll find your website, University of Wellington. And there’s just so much great stuff there that you can check out awesome. Is there anything else you want to say there about fluency development Paul?

Paul  

I could go on all day.

Jay  

No, yeah,

Paul  

I think I’ll stop at that point. Yeah,

Jay  

I think we’ll wrap it up. If that’s alright

Paul  

One thing I would say that if you want to apply the forest rangers to your course, yep. Keep a record of the activities that you do in your course and roughly how much time you spent on spend on them in over the period of a month or so. classify those activities into each of the four strains and see if you get a rough balance. And if you get a rough equal balance, then you’re probably on the right track. And if you find that one of the strains is either neglected, or greatly over emphasize and of time, see if you can make the appropriate adjustments.

Jay  

Nice. And one thing you wrote that I really like is, is it’s not about how should it be taught But how should it be learned and the role of the teacher being less about explicit up the front of the classroom teaching, sit down, let the students do the learning themselves. I think that’s really helped me My thinking.

Paul  

Well let me do a plug here it’s not gonna earn me any money but the book I’ve written many books but the one that I gain the most satisfaction from is a book called what should every EFL teacher know 

Jay  

magic

Paul  

now its important to remember EFL because I wrote another one, which is to ESL teachers, that’s very different. Now this book, what you do every year will teacher No, I think puts down the basic things that over my experience for about 50 years and the teacher training profession. I think these are the really important things that EFL teachers should know. And the book is sold on, you can buy at a hardcopy or online it’s only 15 US dollars. I made the publisher charge a low price for it. That was one of my conditions of letting them publish the book. And that contains what I think the really important thing that teachers should know. Yeah. So if you want it all in a nutshell, that’s the place to go.

Jay  

Wonderful. Wonderful. Great, Paul. I think we’ll wrap it up. 

Paul  

Okay, that’s great. 

Jay  

Soaked up quite a bit of your time. But I really appreciate it certainly helped me out. And hopefully it’s helped out a lot of teachers out there who are now battling through the computer, and also a lot of students who are battling through whatever language they’re learning and yeah, no, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

Paul  

Very good than in Good luck with your work, Jarrad.

Jay  

Thank you Paul. Bye.

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